First Post - First Mock Offseason
Hey guys, huge Jets fan, living out in Detroit. I had some thoughts on what the Jets should do this offseason and wanted to hear your thoughts on my 2012 roster.
Ill start with the guys they will cut.
Eric Smith - Just an awful safety.
Calvin Pace - Pure salary dump. I like Pace but hes making way too much money for the numbers hes putting up
Resignings
Siona Pouha, Jim Leonhard, Brian Thomas, Robert Turner, Aaron Maybin, Nick Folk, Josh Mauga, Brodney Pool, Donald Strickland
Draft
Round 1 Trent Richardson RB - The guy is a monster. I know he can go as high as 5 but the way I see things falling Isee him landing at 16
Round 2 Vinny Curry OLB - we get a dynamic pass rusher we've been missing for years
Round 3 Bobby Massie OT - Dudes born to be a RT. Awesome run blocker. Can start day 1
Round 4 George Iloka FS - Future starting FS
Round 5 Ladius Green TE - Keller is FA next year. I like Cumberland but he hasnt proven anything yet. Green is a pass catching TE who can replace Keller if he leaves.
Round 6 Devaun Bergen DE/DT - High motor guy that can be very productive.
Round 7 Brian Anger P - Conley is awful. We need an upgrade immediatly, Anger is the best punter in the draft.
Free Agent Signings
MIchael Griffin - Best safety available. We need to upgrade at safety, might as well get the best one out there
Braylon Edwards - Man we missed this guy this year, I see us signing him to a 2 year incentave loaded deal
Shaun Hill - Ideal backup qb. Can push Sanchez and step in if Sanchez gets hurt.
2012 roster
Qb - Mark Sanchez, Shaun Hill, Greg Mcelroy
RB -Trent Richardson, Shonn Greene, Joe Mcknight, Bilal Powell
FB - John Conner, Josh Baker
WR - Santonio Holmes, Braylon, Edwards, Jeremy Kerley, Patrick Turner, Scotty Mcknight
TE - Dustin Keller, Jeff Cumberland, Ladarius Green
OT - D'birckshaw Ferguson, Wayne Hunter, Bobbie Massie
OG - Brandon Moore, Matt Slauson, Vlad Duccasse
C - Nick Mangold, Robert Turner
DE - Mo Wilkerson, Mike Devito, Marcus Dixon, Devaun Bergen, Ropati Pitouti
NT - Siouna Pouha, Kendrick Ellis
OLB - Aaron Maybin, Vinny Curry, Brian Thomas, Jamal Westerman
Ilb - David Harris, Bart Scott, Josh Mauga, Nick Bellore
CB - Darelle Revis, Antonio Cromartie, Kyle Wilson, Donald Strickland, Isaiah Trufant
FS - Michael Griffin, George Iloka
SS - JIm Leonhard, Brodney Pool
P - Brian Anger
K - Nick Folk
LS - Tanner Purdam
Now with the numbers I saw on nyjetscap.com we would be over the cap but not by alot. I have Faith in Tanny to restructure some guys to make the numbers work. Its what hes best at.
Looking forward to hearing all remarks - good and bad. And looking forward to being a member of this site
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cutting pace will cost us money
so why cut an every down player like pace and keep bart scott ?
i do like your team overall but i still think the 4 olb’s we have still need improving .
but very good 1st post and i do like your 3 FA signing’s so for that you get a rec
follow me on TWITTER @tinley24
i want jeffery in green at pick 16
Notre Dame vs. Navy: The Emerald Isle Classic
Date:Sept. 1, 2012
Location:Dublin, Ireland
I didnt realize cutting Pace would cost more then keeping him.
I agree our OLB still need more work but i dont think we will be able to fix every need this team has this offseason
by brick wall 60 on Feb 13, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
They really can’t cut Pace. His contract is guaranteed. They’d take a cap hit of $1,763,335 million. Who would start in his place? Even if the Jets had a suitable replacement, if the Jets take a dead money hit of that much, there’d probably be no signing of Griffin or Hill, much less both of them.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
oh and " Welcome to GGN "
follow me on TWITTER @tinley24
i want jeffery in green at pick 16
Notre Dame vs. Navy: The Emerald Isle Classic
Date:Sept. 1, 2012
Location:Dublin, Ireland
by tinley24 on Feb 13, 2012 12:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Like Tinley says...
It’d cost the Jets more to cut Pace than it would to keep him. Since that is not a solid option, you’d have to consider ways for the Jets to create cap space to make those moves. The Jets can roll over their 2011 cap room of about $8 million to make their 2012 salary cap close to $129 million, but they are already at $129 million and don’t have cap room. If cutting Pace brings their cap to $130 million, what do you do to propose the Jets do to cut room so they can resign all those players and then sign Michael Griffin?
- Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead.
- Defeat isn't bitter if you don't swallow it.
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Cutting Pace and drafting Curry?
No thanks. Pace is still a solid starter, and cutting him would kill the cap. I am also strongly against Vinny Curry. He’s slow, will never transition to a 3-4 OLB, and e won’t be able to handle any coverage asignment. He’ll never make it as anything besides a 4-3 end IF that.
WHAT?
Curry may not be fast but he isnt slow either. He is strong, rips past blockers, has an arsenal of moves to get to the QB, constantly creates pressure, has the size, strength, occasional elite burst at the line, and he had consistent top production. He is going to be a stud as a 3-4 OLB
by Buddy James on Feb 13, 2012 6:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not at all.
I watched his whole tape vs WVU in particular and he didn’t generate a QB hit if I’m correct. He could never generate pressure at all.
Curry Is a Beast.
I’m sorry man but Curry is a beast. The kid gives non-stop effort every single snap. He may not be blazing fast but he’s fast enough to consistently be threat rushing on the outside. He’s strong in the run game and just flat out knows how to get to the QB. The WVU which I just watched to see what you were talking about, not a great game by him but not a bad game by him at all. WVU ran a lot of screens, draws and play action, all things to slow down Marshall’s pass rush. They also ran a lot of quick step drops to get the ball out of the QB’s hand quickly and when they did go to throw deep Curry was getting double teamed. He would get there sometimes and miss the QB but I think that is more to Geno Smith’s mobility and ability to get out of the pocket than it was Vinny Curry’s inability to get to the QB.
by RevisIsland&Alcrotraz on Feb 13, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
You're right.
I just don’t see how he’s ever going to handle a coverage assignment. Kind of like Mercilus, I just don’t see how they’ll ever drop in coverage. Just not quick enough…
Dropping into Coverage
is really not an issue for the Jets’ OLBs. Rex said as much last year. He doesn’t care if they can’t do that. He just wants someone capable of generating consistent pressure on the QB.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
Yeah...
…until we got our butts handed to us by teams with good pass catching TEs. Now we need OLBs who have coverage skills.
by struckanerve9 on Feb 14, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
No We Don't
As big, fast and athletic as TEs are getting, there’s no way a LB that can take on OL is going to be able to cover them. Rex himself said he doesn’t care if any OLB they add can drop into coverage. To effectively shut down those TEs, the Jets need to greatly improve their pass rush and then add safeties who can actually cover.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
Why Curry?
The Jets are in a position to get one of the best 3-4 OLBs in the draft and we’re going to waste that pick on a RB we don’t need and end up with Curry who will just be more of the same at that position? Why would we do that? Makes no sense. Richardson is just a flashy pick. Not one we need to make. Curry won’t be our Mario Williams.
by struckanerve9 on Feb 14, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
im really hoping for Upshaw
"You can't believe everything you read on the Internet"
-Abraham Lincoln
But
I like the rest of the draft besides the TE and I love bringing Braylon back. I think Griffin is slightly oerrated, but getting him and drafting Iloka would still be awesome.
welcome!
not bad, although according to newyorkjetscap.com (an awesome site btw) we would actualy lose money by cutting pace. besides that, nice job
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I pretty much like your draft with the exception of Richardson in the first.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
Why no T-Rich?
I dont really like taking a RB in this spot ( actually this whole draft), especially with the needs we have at RT and OLB but Richardson is someone you cant pass on. The kid is a game changer and an every down back. He can be a star in this league very early in his career, and I feel thats something you cant pass on
Being a Jets man might actually kill me
by brick wall 60 on Feb 14, 2012 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Based on what?
He played very well in COLLEGE. On the best team in college. People said the same thing about Matt Leinart and look what happened to him. You can’t assume anything about college players. How soon we forget the debacle of Blair Thomas.
by struckanerve9 on Feb 14, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Leinart played well in college but with such a dynamic offense and the best Rb in college at the time. Richardson in on a run first/ defense heavy team. Everyone knew they were gana run the ball and still couldnt stop him
Being a Jets man might actually kill me
by brick wall 60 on Feb 14, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
And they were the best at it.
That’s my point. Also, Leinart succeeded because he had amazing receivers.
Besides, we don’t need a RB. We need an OLB/DE who can rush the passer, at least one, but probably two safeties, a RT, and WR help. Drafting a RB is a waste of a pick when our current RB rushed for 1000 yards behind an oline that ranked 22nd in rushing and nearly got it’s QB killed.
by struckanerve9 on Feb 14, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
GREENE
I love Greene but he only had 2 games with over 100 yards rushing plus hes no threat in the passing game.
Also Richardson is the only RB i would take in the draft IMO no other RB has his kind of potential
Being a Jets man might actually kill me
by brick wall 60 on Feb 14, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
i have never seen a rb who ran for 1000 yards in his 1st year really starting take so much pressure
"You can't believe everything you read on the Internet"
-Abraham Lincoln
by jetstothesb on Feb 15, 2012 2:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why no T-Rich?
For the very reasons you stated in the first line of your post. The Jets have too many other needs. Look at the stats. No SB winner in the last several has had the leading rusher in the NFL. None of the top RBs have made the SB recently.
I don’t know that Richardson is such a difference maker or someone the Jets can’t pass on. If I was GM and some team offered me a great deal for them to move up and take Richardson and I thought I could still get at top pass-rushing OLB, I’d do it in a NY minute. There are other good RBs in this draft. If the Jets feel like they need another RB, they could take David Wilson in the 2nd. He has great vision, speed, cutting ability, and can run inside or outside, just as Richardson can.
You don’t draft players because they can become stars. You draft players because they can be a difference maker on your team. I don’t think the difference between Richardson and Greene is as big as the difference between Westerman and Upshaw or Ingram, or the difference between Turner and some of the top WR prospects in this draft.
The Jets MUST get a topflight OLB prospect with Thomas gone and Pace set to leave next year. There are very good RBs in the draft every year. You don’t have to take a RB just because you think he could be a star. That’s silly, imo, and sounds like a fan’s perspective, rather than a GM’s.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
Hello there neighbour....
I’m up the Hwy 401 in London. Nice first offing and hardy welcome to GGN!
Your post is quite creative and gets the juices flowing. The 1st thing that caught my eye was…re-signing Bryan Thomas???? Why? I think we’re all agreed we need Pass Rush Pressure for 2012. WE need to get it from 2 places for sure in our Line-backing Corps…1 inside & 1 outside ( Scott & Thomas ). Pace is on the books as noted above for another year. We’ll just have to live with him and hope to put him in better match-ups to make him more effective this year. The other 2 positions I think we fill one from FA and the other from the draft.. Dan Connor from Carolina would be a nice candidate to take over Scott’s position until we can re-draft or re-fill that position by younger FA.
I think while it’s nice to think that if Richardson landed at #16…I’d be open to seeing what we could acquire with that pic by trading down. WE have 7 pics for this draft. But if by trading down we can grab another couple of pics & more for this player I’m all in and we win big. BUT we should be looking at Pass Rush here…..this is a Get Brady pick. So take your pic of who is left on the board of best Def. Line or OLB’s and scoop them here.
I think on the Roster we should also be re-signing Dwight Lowery, cutting Leonard & Folk & Strickland.
Thats my 2 cents worth.
"It's only through change we learn to grow".
Thomas
the reason i have us resigning Thomas is for this reason – Maybin and Curry are both pure pass rushers and not 3 down LB’s. neither are great against the run so Thomas and Scott would basicly both be on the field for running situations and Maybin and Curry on the field for passing situations
Being a Jets man might actually kill me
What's with this Trent Richardson stuff?
Why would we waste our first pick on a position that is not one of need? The Jets have a ton of holes that need to be filled, but one position that is not in urgent need of an upgrade is running back! Greene rushed for over 1000 yards behind the 22nd ranked rushing offense! What this team needs is a stud OLB/DE that can play in a 3-4, TWO new safeties, a RT that isn’t a turnstile, and WR help. Taking Richardson now will not address any of the Jets major needs and will only continue to plug lesser players in those spots.
The point to drafting Richardson
Is drafting a game changing player. You don’t pass up on an elite talent for the sake of filling up a position of need. I think you have to judge who will make the bigger impact in this case I think you would be Richardson. Look at the Lesean McCoys, Matt forte’s, jamaal Charles, and Michael Turners. You’re telling me you wouldn’t rather draft someone that could be in that class of rb’s to draft a player who not make as big of an impact on the team? To fill a position need? Look at the Steelers Packers, and the ravens. Even though the steelers had a stacked LB corps they kept drafting LB’s. They drafted the BPA and they have been stacked for years.
by Buddy James on Feb 14, 2012 8:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also
The Steelers also drafted Mike Wallace when they had Santonio and Hines Ward (in his prime).
by Buddy James on Feb 14, 2012 8:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They Could Do That
because Kevin Colbert is an excellent GM. He doesn’t trade away draft picks moving up in the draft or trading them for a player or players. Because he knows what he’s doing, the Steelers don’t have holes, so they can always go with the BPA.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
You're Assuming that Only Richardson
will be an impact player. That’s simply not true. If the Jets get the right OLB or WR, either could have just as big an impact and be just as much of a playmaker as Richardson, yet make the team much better overall because there will be a much greater difference in their play and the person they replaced than there would be between Richardson and Greene.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
Agreed
But if the elite talent at OLB is gone then why fill a hole in round 1 when you can find someone else to fill a hole in round 2-7? Richardson is special and if he makes it down the jets better draft him
by Buddy James on Feb 15, 2012 3:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes
Having an excellent punter is critical in the type of play that Rex wants to establish. It’s all about field position. It was one of the first things that Tanny should have done 3 years ago when Rex came on board. I meant to include that in my analysis of 2006, but forgot to.
The only way to insure that you get a topflight punter is to draft one in the 5th or 6th round. With the Jets set to have 10-11 picks this year, they not only can afford to draft a punter, they should.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
Two things....
1) I’m still reeling on how you forgot to include that critical piece of information from that posting 6 yrs. ago. Its been kind of nippin away at me. Thanks for clearing that up.
2) Regarding this year’s drafting of a Punter. You said that the Jet’s “should”. I think the situation is more than that now. Our whole ideaolgy seems to be based on “Fix every need with Band-aids or just bloody well ignore them and hope they will go away or that nobody will notice”. Boy did that come home to roost this year. Two clear examples: OL + Secondary. OL has you have so properly laid out should have been addressed right after Texans pre-season game with Turner being IR’d for the season. I quibble here as you did state that they gave Hunter a few games to see if he could find his jock strap and he couldn’t but still Tanny just turned a blind eye. The OL play was somewhat brutal in the 1st two games capped off with Mangold getting hurt witha high sprain of his ankle. We saw what happened next – a 3 game losing streak. A severe pounding on Sanchezz and a stalled running game. It would be pretty much be our trademark for 2011. The Secondary…..Teams started to figure it out finally that you just can’t pass with any long term success against Revis Island. At the same time Cro is getting much better. He does pull a few stunt games ie. Oakland. Forwhatever the reason the flags find him but overall he has gotten himself turned around theire. So our opposition is looking where those 2 guys aren’t covering and hitting our Nickel and Safeties. Kyle Wislon did a pretty good job this year for himself at nickel but the Safety play was attrocious. It was on too many hi-lite packages for other teams. Specifically New England. In the past it was Moss or Welker or Branch….not now. Those two freakin big studs for TE’s just tore up the ground with the ball in their hands. To be fair our Defense was overmatched by Brady this year. He got the right match-ups on the field that he wanted and played no-huddle and we couldn’t substitute until they were kicking the convert. That ‘s what i mean about band-aids…Eric Smith is a fine High School Safety but has no right to be on the field starting for the Jets. If that is not changed this year then they have just re-applied a new band-aid over a veery bad sore and it will not get better on its own. Sorry about being long winded. But I’m so tired of this Jet FO approach…it needs to stop now…..and no excuses about the Cap please.
So drafting a Punter is a Must this year. let’s get us a guy that can kick for us for 10 years.
"It's only through change we learn to grow".
by Canadian Jet on Feb 15, 2012 3:28 AM EST up reply actions
Good Post and I Totally Agree
Sorry I forgot to include that in my 2006 Analysis post. Why didn’t you point out the thing about the punter? Don’t let me get away with that crap. Nail me when I make a glaring omission like that! :-)
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
+1 for punter!
we need a punter and a kicker but maybe we can sign a FA kicker and draft punter. make it happen tanny.
Really its not bad
the draft looks pretty solid but i really think we need a WR in one of the first 3 rounds, i just don’t think we can rely on Braylon to be like he was in 2010 for us.
Also i think Richardson would be a mistake for our first round pick. this team really needs a pass rusher that teams have to game plan around, and that one person that can fluster QB’s – Richardson is a good talent but this team doesn’t need a RB.
id go OLB, WR, OT, FS, OLB with the first 5 picks.
Drafting
Great post man! (Also, hey all, I’m new here. Huge JETS fan living down in DC)
The JETS have been a strange team over these last few years, always seeming to be on the edge of having all the the pieces fall into place. IMO, Sanchez has the potential to be a great QB if all the pieces fit. With a solid line and some new energy in his rb/wr, we’ll get things moving for sure this year. But it all boils down the this draft…
If we can draft/free agent a team that resembles what this list looks like, I think that we’ll have a real solid shot at being a consistant team. With all the nonsense that happened at the end of the season, we really need to make enough changes that it feels like a new team with new chances. We don’t need to cut half our players or anything, but there definitely needs to be some changes made so that the players will feel like they can put the past behind them and move forward into the next season.
Side note…I’m really excited about Maybin and Kerley are going to bring to the table next season. I also don’t think we’ll be seeing Edwards back.
by Ground-n-pound! on Feb 15, 2012 10:47 AM EST reply actions
Hmm
As much as I like Green, we can fill bigger holes and hes not going after the 4th round. Iloka is going in the third, fourth is definitely too late for him, and why wouldnt we get laron landry a SS over griffin a FS if were alrdy drafting iloka who is a FS? Trent isnt going to slip to 16 as much as id like. how about something like this..
Round 1: Courtney Upshaw OLB
R2: Tommy Streeter WR
R3: George Iloka FS
R4. Audi Cole ILB
R5. Andrew Datko OT
R6: Kellen Moore QB
R7: Brian Anger P
Sign Laron Landry
CB Revis Cromartie
FS Iloka
SS Landry
OLB Upshaw Maybin
ILB Harris Cole
Thats a solid athletic 8
A Big NO to Streeter
Especially in the 2nd round. No way I’d take him. He’s a project and has very suspect hands.
IMO there are better prospects projected to go in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler
The second round is too high for him, but he has pretty good hands.
His problem is that he will sometimes try to catch it in his body. When he uses his hands, he’s fine, but sometimes he’ll look like a fool when the ball bounces off his pads. If he can fix that though, he could be a great WR. I thought it wasn’t a good idea though to come out because he could’ve made himself a 2nd rounder next year and maybe a first rounder.
It’s not often you find a 6’5 WR that can run a sub-4.4 40. That is very enticing.
- Attempting to debate with a person who has abandoned reason is like giving medicine to the dead.
- Defeat isn't bitter if you don't swallow it.
Contributing Writer to the The Phinsider.
Follow @Finhead83
Moore?
whats the point of drafting another weak armed qb in the late rounds? we took mccelroy last yr.
Also Datko is not lasting to round 5
And if we go WR in round 2 we can get a much better reciever then Streeter
Being a Jets fan might actually kill me
by brick wall 60 on Feb 16, 2012 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
I LOVE this draft
If Upshaw is available and T Rich not; then this is almost picture perfect….Take out Streeter; put in OLB Vinny Curry in R2 and this is pretty much picture perfect….Oh and take out more….I want us to get Orton or Campbell as our backup
trent richardson will not be there
if he is we should trade down to get more picks. we need pass rusher in the first round. I would take curry in second as well.
thank you
now I know that I am not the only person on this site that REALLY wants Curry…Dude is going to be a beast.
Good draft picks but sort of a reach
Richardson will be gone by 16. George Illoka is the 3rd or so best safety prospect, and will be gone in the 3rd round. Vinny Curry will be picked late 1st or early 2nd, before the 16th pick. 4-3 teams and teams running 3-4 want him. I don’t see him lasting 48 picks. Why get Trent Richardson if you have Shonn Green and Joe McKnight? Not saying he isn’t better than them, but why not address a bigger need?

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