Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Why You Should Want Sanchez As The Starting QB

I've spent a fair amount of time reading posts on this website over the last couple of days. It appears to me that there is a mixed sentiment about the hiring of Tony Sparano as OC. It seems that a lot of people like the hire, but dont love it. I however, am loving this hire more and more the longer i think about it. And heres why:

Looking at the Cowboys offense from 2006, (the only year in his NFL career that Sparano called offensive plays) the Cowboys ran the ball an average of 29 times a game, and threw it 31 times a game. The reason I point this out is because this breakdown heavily favors the offense, and mainly the QB we have in place. Over Sanchez's career so far, he 17-8 as a starter when he attempts 30 or fewer passes in a game. This is in contrast with his 9-12 record when he throws 31 or more passes. This trend continues in the playoffs, where he is 3-1 when throwing 30 or fewer times, compared to 1-1 when hes over 30 throws.

I think Sparano will be a great fit here, and instantly get the offense going again just through his balance of play calling. I also am starting to shy away from the idea of hiring Todd Haley to team with Sparano. I know Haley is a good WR/passing game coach, but im not sure thats what the Jets need. They need to hire a QB coach that can help Sanchez improve his reading of defenses, but they dont need a guy who wants to throw the ball 40+ times. Sanchez is a good game manager, and can make a big play when he needs to. But he is not, and probably never will be, a throw-it-40-times QB like the Manning brothers or Brees or Brady. His strengths mess perfectly with Sparanos play calling style, and this will be enough to fix the offense. Get back to ground and pound, and we can run our way back to the playoffs, and hopefully the Super Bowl. Sanchez has the talent to win the SB, as long as the coaching plays to his strengths, which Sparano will.

Please leave your thoughts and comments below. Thanks.

Comment 77 comments  |  4 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Way less 3 and outs!

This means the D will be able to DOMINATE again! I like the direction and i see a return to form for this team next year. Like this years 49ers with for talent!

by GreenFlight on Jan 12, 2012 1:01 PM EST reply actions  

It's poetic, really

Sparano won in spite of the Dolphins, while the Jets won in spite of Schottenheimer..

Good post Chrebet……….

"I know I will bounce back from this situation, and I refuse to feel sorry for myself, ... There are so many things in my life to be thankful for." - Chad Pennington

by abarsoum1jetsfan on Jan 13, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I've been saying it for years

I love Sanchez to death, and think the world of him, but he just needs to manage the game…..I’m sure Jets fans here remember his rookie season, where he handicapped us so bad, that we lost the game to Buffalo, Atlanta, New Orleans, and Jacksonville because of his ineptitude….I really feel that if we signed a FA like Jeff Garcia or even Favre for one more, combined with the fact that we were under the radar, and we could of won gone 13-3 and win the Super Bowl…..sigh….such is life.

"I know I will bounce back from this situation, and I refuse to feel sorry for myself, ... There are so many things in my life to be thankful for." - Chad Pennington

by abarsoum1jetsfan on Jan 13, 2012 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Good Post

Like GreenFlight alluded to above, The 49er’s called plays to conform to their QB’s strentghs and he has flourished (only 5 INT’s). I hope Sparano does the same for Mark and I think he will. As all of us have said Mark can’t take a team on his shoulders but he is a good game manager. The defense I’m sure became disgruntled with the numerous 3 and outs from the offense and I guarantee you there are a few of them spouting off as “anonymous source” I agree this will be a make or break year for Mark but he will only succeed with a good OC and player cast around him. We will all see what happens next in this off-season saga……GO JETS!!!

by NYCKID on Jan 12, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions  

Nice post man

I agree. I’m reserved about Sparano, but hopefully he works out.

Arm chair GM. Mod/contributing writer at SBN Jets blog GGN.
GangGreenNation.com

by Bro Namath on Jan 12, 2012 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

I only disagree with respect to your Haley comment.
I also am starting to shy away from the idea of hiring Todd Haley to team with Sparano. I know Haley is a good WR/passing game coach, but im not sure thats what the Jets need. They need to hire a QB coach that can help Sanchez improve his reading of defenses, but they dont need a guy who wants to throw the ball 40+ times.

And it’s only a limited disagreement. I think they need someone who can prepare Sanchez as though he is going to have to throw 40+ times a game, just to not put that expectation on his shoulders, especially just yet. In other words, the playcalling should limit his throwing, but he needs to be trained up as though this is a throw-first team, to build those skills. Not necessarily those of a pocket passer, since that’s not what he is, but of a guy who can handle the pocket, read the D, have mobility, and know to step up/keep his eyes downfield. Even if that only happens 20 times a game.

by MiaJets on Jan 12, 2012 2:09 PM EST reply actions  

good post

agree with your points .
i think we will see the real sanchez this year .

in my mind a good coach has lots of jobs to do but one big difference between schotty and sparono is familiarity . schotty got to comfortable in his job and had tell feeling of being untouchable . tony won’t bring that to this job as he knows he will need to prove himself to the fans even more coming from the phins . he can’t afford to rest on his laurels .
he need to take as many good bits from other OC’s in the league who had success with less talent ie 49ers etc and bring as much consistency to the offence as possible .

if its for you it won't pass you

by tinley24 on Jan 12, 2012 2:24 PM EST reply actions  

I like your thought process and I can agree...

but the thing is, you don’t draft a guy 5th overall, and pay him $50+ million JUST to be a game manager.

by umohan21 on Jan 12, 2012 2:32 PM EST reply actions  

Not a Good Game Manager

’Sanchez is a good game manager, and can make a big play when he needs to. But he is not, and probably never will be, a throw-it-40-times QB like the Manning brothers or Brees or Brady."

Good game managers do not turn the ball over 26 times. The first order of business for a game manager is limiting mistakes. Sanchez doesn’t do this. And it’s not just play calling. The last three games of the year Sanchez had 3 turnovers each game. Only in the Giants game did he pass more than 32 times. The other two games we tried to run it, we limited his pass attempts, and he still turned it over 3 times each. That’s not a good game manager, that’s a bad QB. Maybe he’ll develop into a god game manager, but he’s not there yet.

by Smackdad on Jan 12, 2012 2:37 PM EST reply actions  

because only the last 3 games of the year count right?

All the other games he has ever played mean nothing compared to his last 3 games…shakes head

by PowerBar on Jan 18, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Good Post

Sporano was also part of the #2 ranked Dallas Cowboys offense. He got some slack for being conservative as well, but that’s not true. He ran a wildcat offense at Miami in his first year which is far from conservative. He had to limit the plays being called this year because the starting QB Chad Henne was hurt and put on IR. He had to go through the year with a back up qb and not a lot of options on offense outside of Reggie Bush and Brandon Marshall who’s schizo. Here’s to the Saprono’s coming back to the meadowlands.

by manuvsteal on Jan 12, 2012 3:07 PM EST reply actions  

Game Manager

Ben Roethlisberger is still being called a ‘game manager’. I feel like if you are a dynamic thrower like Brees, Brady, Rodgers, its easy to say someone is a game manager. Like there are only two possible classes a QB could be….
No one thinks Sanchez is going to be a dynamic thrower. And that’s fine. What Sanchez posesses, and why a lot of people (myself included) still want to give him a chance, is because he’s a winner. He finds ways to win in high pressure games. He was Tebow before Tebow was cool.
I think he will respond nicely to a Schotty-less offense and can’t wait for the season to start and get passed what is going to be a LONG off season.

by mangold'sbeard on Jan 12, 2012 4:07 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Nicely said

I didn’t want to bring up Ben and now I don’t have to because your remarks are dead on

Love with a LEO is like a drug.. One taste and your addicted!

by MDGeekyGrl on Jan 12, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks.
(I meant to say "I feel like if you are NOT a dynamic thrower’..)

by mangold'sbeard on Jan 12, 2012 4:40 PM EST reply actions  

So basically...

When Sanchez throws less, you win. Why don’t you look up Sanchez winning % when you have more than 100 or 150 yards rushing. He relys on the running game, and when he has to rely on his actual arm, well he sucks. And don’t start with that QB win crap, football is a team sport, and QBs while are the most important position, they don’t win games, great D’s do.

Yes, you had a crappy OC, but even if Sanchez was any good, it would’ve shown. He relied on the running game, and short TD passes. He can’t read D’s and relies on a lot of dumboffs. He is simply not a good QB.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 12, 2012 8:19 PM EST reply actions  

thank you random colt fan

i realy don’t know what i would have thought with out your random colt fan opinion. he has shown sparks of good qb play, it’s just with a bad OC teaching him the ropes, and a qb coach who has been known to create busts, i’m not overly shocked a qb with one year of college experiance hasn’t played so well. and yet despite his crappy o-lin, his lackluster wr’s, his bad coaches and his one dimensional run game, he still put up better numbers then last year. he threw more yards, had a better completion % and threw more td’s. i believe with a decent qb coach and OC, his jump next year will be slightly bigger. thanks for stopping by random colt fan. and one more thing

win crap, football is a team sport, and QBs while are the most important position, they don’t win games, great D’s do.

and this is from a colts fan. how grea was that D in 06? was it 28th? it’s a team sport, and O and D wins games, not great D’s. i D is pretty good, we just need our O to become competitive.

"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengel
i cant spell a nosebleed
The Official Seinfeld Gif-Man of GGN!!!!!!!!
i'm a moderator for GGN. I will accept tribute.

by rexthejet on Jan 12, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just here for a lively debate

What’s wrong with that? Don’t want me here? Just ignore me then, no problem from my end.

First, I’ll start with the most rediculous point. (and this is from a colts fan. how grea was that D in 06? was it 28th? it’s a team sport, and O and D wins games, not great D’s. i D is pretty good, we just need our O to become competitive.) Sorry don’t know how to use quotes. The D in 06 regular season was horrid, it cost us many games late in the season. BUT, during the playoffs, it was freaking amazing. Holding then a great RB Larry Johnson to under what, 25 yards? Shutting down the Ravens O, and then the D stiffling up in the second quarter of the AFCCG and destroying the Bears O was how the Colts won. Couldn’t have won it without Manning, but no freaking way we would’ve won that SB without our D improving massively. It’s not up for debate, the D won us the playoffs, despite Manning’s barely above average playoffs.

The only thing about the OC and QB coach statement, it’s purely opinion. I don’t personally know your QB coach and if he’s good or not, but I do know what I see, and even if Sanchez had a bad OC, he should be showing more than a few flashes. Is it official Sanchez will forever be a bad QB, nope. But most elite and great, even good QBs show more than just flashes in their 3rd year. 3rd year is usually the most important year for a QB, usually tells what you will have in him.

As to if Sanchez has improved, I look at DVOA, not basic stats. They tell you nothing how they got the TDs or against who. DVOA factors all kinds of stuff like that in. And this year, Sanchez was ranked 26th among Qbs. Take a look.

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

2011 DVOA: -5.6%, (behind QBs like Tavaris Jackson, Rex Grossman, and Dan Orlovsky)
2010 DVOA: 1.6%, ranked 18.
2009 DVOA: -21.9%, ranked 38.

While Sanchez made a leap his second year (after being terrible his first) he regressed, and was a below average QB, according to advanced metrics which take into account situations and who you are playing. I suggest youread up on the stat if you are unfamiliar, very useful and helpful stat.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 13, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, if you were to be so kind

as to jump back on you suck for luck bandwagon that your fanbase invented, and don’t forget the brown bag masks…..lmfao, colts fans wearing Stanford Luck jersey’s to Colt’s game…..I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the insolence that your fans showed to 18,,,,the alpha an omega to your team

"I know I will bounce back from this situation, and I refuse to feel sorry for myself, ... There are so many things in my life to be thankful for." - Chad Pennington

by abarsoum1jetsfan on Jan 13, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

You don't know much about the Colts do you?

Instead of insulting me, how about we have a civil debate, hm? I did not insult you, and if I did I am sorry.

And second, you have no idea about Manning. The reason all the fans want Luck is because we’re pretty sure Manning will never play for the Colts, or football again. He’s due to be paid 28 million in March, and the Colts either have to bet on him being healthy and pay him(which I don’t think will happen…), or cut him or he retires. He’s not near healthy, and I doubt he’s ever going to play football again. I love the man to death, he’s my favorite football player ever and probably the best football player I’ll ever see. But his time, is probably over. You can’t bring emotion into business decisions, which is what I’m afraid the Colts will do.

Don’t lump us all in, there are idiot fans on every team. Don’t get me started on those who thought Sanchez was the next coming of Manning.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

sorry for coming off that way
I’m just here for a lively debate
What’s wrong with that? Don’t want me here? Just ignore me then, no problem from my end

sorry, it’s just you came out of nowhere. of course i know you don’t need a great qb to win. if i thought that was the only way to win, it would be a little hard to be a jet fan.

First, I’ll start with the most rediculous point. (and this is from a colts fan. how grea was that D in 06? was it 28th? it’s a team sport, and O and D wins games, not great D’s. i D is pretty good, we just need our O to become competitive.) Sorry don’t know how to use quotes. The D in 06 regular season was horrid, it cost us many games late in the season. BUT, during the playoffs, it was freaking amazing. Holding then a great RB Larry Johnson to under what, 25 yards? Shutting down the Ravens O, and then the D stiffling up in the second quarter of the AFCCG and destroying the Bears O was how the Colts won. Couldn’t have won it without Manning, but no freaking way we would’ve won that SB without our D improving massively. It’s not up for debate, the D won us the playoffs, despite Manning’s barely above average playoffs.

well, it’s funny yu mention the pat game in the 06 playoffs. i’m to lazy to check, but i believe the score was 21-6 at the half, and the finale was 38-34. you define it as the colts “stiffling up” letting 13 points in the 2nd half. last year against the steelers, it was 24-0 at the half. the d didn’t let up another point. yet our O only scored 19 despite getting the ball many times, we didn’t score on 1st and goal on the 1. now, your D might have played better in the 2nd, but if you guys don’t half peyton manning, you don’t win the game. as you pointed out below, if we had peyton, we probably would have won a super bowl. i actualy like sanchez, i just think it is the O as a whole that has sucked. i know you said below that we don’t know what colt fans believe (apoligize for the “suck for luck” guy. he’s new here, i stop by at the brb eternal thread, where a lot of the colt fans are. i realize that not a lot of you think like that) so you have to realize cavenaugh and schotty’s backround. schotty was here for 6 years, and never had a O in the top half of the league. he’s had 3 different qb’s, pennington and farve both finnished in the top 5 of mvp voting the year after they left here. i know the circumstances were very different, but as a fan of this team, you have to wonder what the 3rd qb would be like without him. now about cavenaugh, a good friend of mine was talking to a ravens fan, telling him about schottenhiemer and the offensive staff. the ravens fan said that no matter how bad we think we have it, our O coaches weren’t as bad as the ones the ravens had in the early 2000’s. this is a team that messed up many qb’s in that time period. you could imagine my fried was a little shocked when he found out that cavenaugh was their O cordinator. cavenuagh was also the o cordinator of the bears for 2 years. their wen 4-12 both of those years, an the bears put up 263 points in 16 games, which i believe is less then 16 points per game. now, when you draft a qb with a lt of talent, but only ad one year of experiance, it would be best to have him grow and mature behind another qb while learning from the offensive coaches. so besides the fact that he was put right in on day one, he was coached by these 2 idiots. combine a cordinator who runs a complicated O with a qb coach who has done nothing but suck as a coach, it’s not going to go well. you say sanches hasn’t shown flashes. i disagree. last year he led multiple comebacks late in the game, and played retty well in the playoffs. sadly, sanchez isn’t the whole offense, and he deinetly doesnt call the plays. he wasn’t even allowed to call a audible untill this year.

so, to try and sum it all up, i agree qb’s isn’t all what win you games. you need your D to play well, and our d was a lot better then yours when we played you in 09. sanchez even had a decent game, but that game came down to peyton shredding our secondary, and our O not scoring a point in the 2nd half. our d shut down palmer and rivers in that same playoffs, but manning was too good. you could claim that your d stopped our o from getting a point, although it is technicaly true, peyton manning would have won that game for us. btw, you quote by highlighting what you want, and the you click blockqoute. i agree sanchez hasn’t played that well, but our bad o-line, nt great wr’s, one dimensional rb’s and our ineffective offensive coaches probably added a little to that.

"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengel
i cant spell a nosebleed
The Official Seinfeld Gif-Man of GGN!!!!!!!!
i'm a moderator for GGN. I will accept tribute.

by rexthejet on Jan 14, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

K

By the D stiffining up, I meant not giving up 30 points, forcing a 3 and out when it really come, and forcing the final turnover which sealed the game. Against Brady, 13 points is an acheivement.

I’m not debating if we didn’t have Manning we wouldn’t have won, we without a doubt wouldn’t have. For that situation, we needed a great QB. Like you did against the Steelers. Or atleast a competent O. The D wasn’t great that game and Sanchez really didn’t help by giving them great field position (and I think a few turnovers), but if you did have a good QB, you probably win that game. In defensive games, just a turnover or the bounce of the football deceides the game. Sanchez just made too many mistakes.

Coaching does have a big impact on a QB, and I’m not even sure QBs with one year of experience starting should be drafted in the top 5 anyway… But after reading it, yeah he’s probably playing worse due to coaching. The thing is, from what I’ve heard, it doesn’t sound like he’s putting in the work that he should be. With that, he should atleast be average, and if was going to be breat, you would know by now. Heck, even Curtis Painter showed flashes of being good. Sanchez just needs to become average and consistent, then you’re good.

Flashes, well almost every QB has them. Painter, Orlovsky, and hell, Gabbert showed signs of being good. Doesn’t change the fact that they are all terrible QBs. Not saying that Sanchez is terrible, but he could be better. Maybe a better work effort and better OC he could be average consistently.

You really need a D to win a SB, and an atleast a servicable QB to win. Or Trent Dilfer. Or a great QB and a D that might give up a lot of yards, but forces turnovers. That’s how you win SBs. Look at the 49ers, they have a great D and a good QB and they beat one of those great QBs. Great QBs don’t win SBs, D’s do. 49ers are recent proof of that.

Manning won us that game. Thing is when you take away that great D, you’re left with an average O. Colts shut that down(too bad they played so poorly against the Saints… Don’t get me started… forced only 2 3rd downs in the second half… Still hurts too much..) Playoffs are about luck. Great D and average O won’t save you from a HOF QB having one of his best games ever. Great D’s will give you the best chance of winning a SB. Still doesn’t make the chance of winning a SB very high, too many variables and well great players having great games. But they give you the best chance.

And I don’t take offense to it. If you went to StampedeBlue(though I would not reccomend it at all unless you want to be met by hordes of idiot fans[go to ColtsAuthority for Colts stuff and debate]) you would met some hostile people there. Long as I can have fun and have intellegent conversations with some people I’m good.

BTW, do you think QB wins are a valid stat, playoff or regular season. You obviously know where I stand haha…

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I can imagine where you stand on that. I just think with better coaching, maybe a young wr that will listen to him instead of veterns like holmes who think they’re akways right. In his 3rd year, sanchez didn’t have one wr that he had in his first year. I think stability and good coaching is something he has realy lacked even in his first 2 years. I agree about his work ethic. This is were i think a coach like sparano realy helps. He has been known to get the most out of his guys, he even had his team playing hard when they were far out of the playoffs. Players love him. Henne said that he motivated him to try his best. I believe sanchez has more talent then henne. I just never saw sanchez or cavenaugh as motivators who would demand a good work ethic. Not everyone comes in with a great work ethic. I was reading today about how aldon smith says that he realy gained from working out with the veterans. He said it pushed him to work harder. When i see brunnel rlaxing on the sideline, laughing during games, i don’t realy think he had anyone to push him. Rex has nothing to do with the offense. I’m still not sure how great a OC sparano will be, but i believe he will finnaly be the one to push sanchez. I know about stampede blue. I believe thats why certain colt fans left and are currently hanging out on the texans site. Thanks for stopping by. Like evry fan base, not everyone is intrested in disscusing much

"it's not easy being green"-kermit the frog
"we the mets are an improved ball club, now we lose in extra innings"-casy stengel
i cant spell a nosebleed
The Official Seinfeld Gif-Man of GGN!!!!!!!!
i'm a moderator for GGN. I will accept tribute.

by rexthejet on Jan 14, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Some things contradict this...

http://www.ganggreennation.com/2011/5/3/2152270/jets-west-2011-has-begun

If you look at this link you will notice that “Jets West” is organized by Sanchez. According to this article only one currently active Jets WR was present for that. I don’t believe his work ethic is bad at all…Holmes was not re-signed yet and opted not to go…of course Plaxico was not with the team yet. Keller was there according to other reports. IMO Greene and Joe McKnight should have been there too. Basically, like I said I think he has pretty good work ethic.

by Mac N Cheese on Jan 15, 2012 6:56 AM EST up reply actions  

That didn't come out right...lol

That response is in regards to Sanchez’s work ethic.

by Mac N Cheese on Jan 15, 2012 7:00 AM EST up reply actions  

great defenses my ass.

U may want to believe that great defenses win games, but they dont. QBs do. You of all people should know that. Look at this season. The Packers, Saints, Patriots, and Giants all have sub-par defenses(although the giants have looked much better lately), yet they are still alive in the playoffs, and are largely favored to appear in the SB this year. And the Colts lost their QB for the year, and their defense still couldnt stop anyone.

As much as you pass-happy QB lovers may struggle to accept it, you can win in this league still by throwing the ball underneith and using dumpoffs. You dont need to try and throw for 400 yards a game to win. Sanchez is a game manager because he does some things well, and when the team sticks to them, they win. He is very comfortable with play action, and that becomes effective when you run the ball. So yes, if we throw the ball less, we win because it means we are moving the ball on the ground and controling the game. No he is not a great QB, but he has more than enough talent to win a SB, given the right balance on offense.

by ChrebetTheJet80 on Jan 12, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Hm

Packers – great turnover team, you think without them being in the what top 3 in turnovers that they would be where they are? Yeah, they have an amazing QB and offense, but without all those turnovers they definatly would’ve lost some games. And unless they keep forcing turnovers they will find themselves home watching the SB like us. Guarenteed.

Patriots- Have a truely terrible D. They won’t win the SB’s. Great QBs get you to the playoffs against weaker competition, great D’s win you the SB. I’d compare them to the last 10 or so years of the Colts, great QB and O, no D. Eventually, that D will collapse against an O and Brady won’t be able to catch up. They aren’t going anywhere, I’ve seen the Colts go through this more times than I would like to.

Saints – Same thing. Great QB, no D. I’d compare their SB run a few years ago to the Packers right now. D gives up pleanty of yards, but forces turnovers. Packers just might win the SB for that reason.

Giants – Eli is hardly elite. He’s good, yes, but he’s not elite. He has a good D, and that’s why they are there. Nothing on that team is elite, and it’s very well balanced. No idea what will happen to them, but I don’t think they’ll win the SB.

See my other comments for my comments about the Colts D.

I’m not a QB lover, I’m a D lover. The only reason I may seem like that, is because my team had the greatest QB ever, and built the team around him. If they spent more time on the D, they’d have more superbowls.

You can only do that when you have a great D to stop the other teams O, and by that stratagy, you’re not scoring many points. Control the clock, perhaps, but not score many points. Then again, with your D, you really just need to get over about 20 points and you’re probably good.

I don’t know how many times I need to say this. You don’t need a great QB to win a SB. At all. You need a great D who can create more opportunities for your O, and a great ST never hurts at all. You need a servicable QB (which Sanchez might be), great running game, and an outstanding D. You’re very close to that. Fix the OL, and a few cogs in the D and you’ve got a SB team. It’s really that simple, Sanchez doesn’t need to be outstanding to win, he just needs to rely on everyone else.

Then again, if you had a great QB, you probably would’ve won a SB by now. Put a Manning or a Brees on the Jets and you’ve got an unstoppable team. Just a cap nightmare though.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 13, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I really think you ought ta focus on your own team, bud

The Colts are going to face seasons that would rival that of tribulation for many many seasons…..but hey, ignorance is bliss……but hey, tell you what, if the Colts management thinks without reacting from the seat of their pants, and draft some QB from Waco, instead of drinking the Luck kool aid, then they got a puncher’s chance

"I know I will bounce back from this situation, and I refuse to feel sorry for myself, ... There are so many things in my life to be thankful for." - Chad Pennington

by abarsoum1jetsfan on Jan 13, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Like I said

If you don’t like me, ignore me and let me debate with people. Other than that, kindly stop lumping me with the idiots.

Yep, I know that. Yet, I’m still a fan. Colts will be back to contention in 2-3 years if they don’t screw the next few drafts up. If they do, well… Yeah it’ll be longer.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

You are young so you still have time to learn.

I can’t believe a Colts fan would come on this site to argue that QBs don’t win football games. Defences do. Really? Have you watched the Colts over the last five or ten years?

Look at the Niners vs Saints game last weekend. The only reason that the Niners are still alive is that Alex Smith made outstanding play after outstanding play in the last five minutes to pull the game out of the fire for the Niners after Brees began shredding the Niners D.
Don’t get me wrong, I like defence more than most [I really don’t like 45 – 41 games] but look around and the teams that are perrenial playoff teams have outstanding QBs.

As someone above commented, take a guess who the Colts will pick with the first selection. Luck or the best defensive player available?

"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 19, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

QB's Don't Win Games!!!!

Yeah and that coming from a random colts fan without Manning this year, how’d that work out for you ?

by Trencher on Jan 13, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

You seem to

Think that all QB’s are like Manning. Manning IS the Greatest QB of All Time, of course he has such a large impact on the game. That’s why you seach for a great QB to built the team around. The Colts were built around a great QB, without it, the D was exposed and the O couldn’t keep up.

What I mean is, average QBs don’t have near the impact Manning does. While they can help you win games, they will not win games like Manning can. The average QB does not win games, they are the most important people on the field, but even with a great QB you need a servicable D to win SBs. That’s why Manning doesn’t have near as many. He’s done a great job of the O, the D just keeps collapsing in the playoffs and Manning can only do so much byhimself for so long.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 13, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Good Post

I think things have a chance to dramatically improve. Whether they will or not is another matter. As you and others have stated, the NFL is a passing league now. No team with the top rusher or top rushing offense has won the SB in years. They can’t just dump the ball off, either. To keep opposing Ds honest and prevent them from stacking 8 in the box, the Jets have to make some deep throws to stretch the field. They have to make use of all pass routes, and not ignore certain routes.

"Reality is purely the perception of the individual mind. It follows, that since no two minds are alike, no two perceptions of reality are alike. It further follows, that what reality is to one, may seem complete madness to someone else."

– Yefim Novikov

by joeklecko on Jan 13, 2012 1:19 AM EST reply actions  

I agree that they need to take some shots. I was trying to say that they dont need to take the philosophy of the Packers or Saints and throw the ball down field all the time.

by ChrebetTheJet80 on Jan 13, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I Agree With this Point

and don’t think they will. I think they’re going to pass to set up the run and vice versa. One of Mark’s strengths is the play-action pass. They will set that up.

"Reality is purely the perception of the individual mind. It follows, that since no two minds are alike, no two perceptions of reality are alike. It further follows, that what reality is to one, may seem complete madness to someone else."

– Yefim Novikov

by joeklecko on Jan 14, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't disagree more.

We didn’t trade up into the top 5 to get a game manager. We traded up to get a guy that can strap the team on his back and carry us to the promised land. We traded up into the top 5 because we believed that he had the talent to be that guy. And we need an OC that can develop that talent and that can craft an offense that will allow that talent to flourish. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t run the ball. Lots of great QBs have had good running games. But Sanchez needs to be the catalyst of the offense. The offense needs to be designed around his strengths and weaknesses.

We can sign any old vet to manage a game (eg Jason Campbell). If the plan is to keep the ball out of Sanchez’s hands, then we should trade him while he still might have value (high draft pick, 2 AFCC games). But if we’re committed to him, we shouldn’t be running a freaking Tony Sparano offense.

by Crackback on Jan 13, 2012 7:17 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Shit happens, and reality sucks

nobody ever drafts a player to play below their draft spot worth, but these things happen, and little pesky things such as contract strangleholds take place….with that said, it doesn’t hurt to have a depthful team and good adjusting coaching staff that can pick up the slack for others, ergo i really believe the Jets can make a legitimate run with a game manager under center….2008 showed us that if we had a manager qb who didn’t turn over the ball, as opposed to handicap by Sanchez, that we could of been 13-3…….but yes, Crackback, I would love Sanchez to be a 4000 yard, 30 td guy season in and out, but the good news is we can still be dangerous if he can’t

"I know I will bounce back from this situation, and I refuse to feel sorry for myself, ... There are so many things in my life to be thankful for." - Chad Pennington

by abarsoum1jetsfan on Jan 13, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, 2009

sanchez’s rookie season

"I know I will bounce back from this situation, and I refuse to feel sorry for myself, ... There are so many things in my life to be thankful for." - Chad Pennington

by abarsoum1jetsfan on Jan 13, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

what is a Tony Sparano offense?

I don’t think anyone really knows for sure. But if he has the common sense not to empty the entire backfield on 3rd and 3 and he’s willing to at least attempt to throw it deep, and he demands accountability, we might just see the AFC championship game again and even more.

by PowerBar on Jan 18, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

YES!!!

Preach it brother…!

by Smackdad on Jan 13, 2012 7:52 AM EST reply actions  

Why we traded up.

Yes we traded up because we believed Sanchez had what it took to be the next great one, but me, like a lot of people, dont think he does. That being said, the kid wins games, especially in the Playoffs. Tony Sparanos offense is built around a quarterback with the skill set Sanchez has, and he should excel next year. We can win with him. We dont need a Peyton or a Brady to win with this team

by ChrebetTheJet80 on Jan 13, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

not exactly murder's row

Could be compared to McKnight,Greene, and Connor, although I think McKnight is better than Jones, Greene and Barber are comparable(maybe Barber is a slightly better receiver), maybe Sparano brings Polite in, as he had in Miami also, but I think Connor did solid in his second year and being the fulltime Fullback.

by chrebetsthebet on Jan 13, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed

Barber is a better receiver than Greene, but thats really the only difference. And i cant see Rex letting Connor go in favor of Polite. They are pretty comparable, and Conner was Rex’s draft pick.

by ChrebetTheJet80 on Jan 13, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

And how can you give up a guy

whose nickname is “the Terminator”??

by MiaJets on Jan 13, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

scratch "polite"

NE grabbed Him…and I thk it was for 2 yrs..

by Jack2466 on Jan 18, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Another reason we won't get Peyton

Peyton is going to want to take his center, Saturday who is a FA. You’d already have to give up SO much to land Peyton, and now you’d have to lose Mangold as well???? NO WAY.
NO PEYTON.

by mangold'sbeard on Jan 13, 2012 9:55 AM EST reply actions  

Main reason

is Sparano runs a run first offense, why would Manning want to be in that type of offense. He wants the offense to run through him. He lives by the sword, he dies by the sword.

by chrebetsthebet on Jan 13, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Also

anyone who wants to beat up Sanchez for sucking up the limelight—- Think of just how much you’d see Peyton’s big forehead plastered all over the tri state area. It would be unbearable!

by mangold'sbeard on Jan 13, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

YOU DO NOT CUT SANCHEZ period!!!!

To all the lets cut Scanchez croud take this simple test:

What QB drafted say a year before, after, or same time would:
1- still be healthy after leading the league (top 4) in getting sacked? The Lions QB would be in a wheelchair right now…so name 4____
2- have the Balls to tell Shotty "um no coach thats stupid im not running that series of plays" The guy was bran new to the NFL..and wanted to just listen to superiors but he had a coach that could not use his strengths….so name 4______
3- could handle playing in the NYC limelight ….so name 4______
4- got to back to back AFC title games in their first 2 years (yeah it was mostly D that did it but he had some good games as a QB and no one was calling for his head then….so name 4__________
5- could still throw (something like) 6 less TD passes than Brady while dealing with a human turnstyle named W. Hunter…..so name 4______________

Now name a QB a year before during or after Sanchez entered the league that is in all 5 catagories…..and tell me if sanchez is good or bad

by willmpk on Jan 13, 2012 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

Hey, just leave the Matthew Stafford cracks out of your comment.

For the record, the Jets gave up 40 sacks in 2011 which was 20th in the NFL. The Lions gave up 36 sacks in 2011. I’ll do the math for you; that is a difference of four sacks. Whoop-de-do.

Stafford came through the season playing virtually every snap [except a couple of blowouts] and he withstood more hits [78 to 70 according to NFL.com] and played great for us.

I am pretty sure that us Lions fans are not talking about drafting another QB or cutting our first round QB pick of 2009. Good luck to you in your QB search.

"I’m sorry for all the people who want us to run the ball 40 times a game, but we’re going to put the ball in No. 9’s hands and he’s going to make plays for us like he did today," Lions coach Jim Schwartz said. Amen to that Jim!

by NorthLeft12 on Jan 19, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone please watch to refresh your memory about Mark Sanchez when he has a decent WR core.

http://youtu.be/8LL8FHwqDTs

The Jets will win the Super Bowl one day and that will be the day i laugh in your face if your not a Jets fan.

by sanchise6 on Jan 13, 2012 2:15 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you for posting that.

I miss those days. Amongst all the griping and the questioning, it’s nice to remember the upside, the potential that we all thought would be built upon this year.

by MiaJets on Jan 13, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I never wanted Peyton

But this highlight reel only goes to show how much potential Sanchez DOES have. This is the same kid who knocked Phillip Rivers, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady out of the playoffs in only his first two seasons. He has potential. Did he reach it this year? No, but Drew Brees couldn’t reach his potential under Schotty either. Watching this video you couldn’t help but notice how much the team missed Braylon’s desire, heart and deep play ability. I would love to get him back, but I think Tommy Streeter and/or Brian Quick could be a nice consolation prize(s) in round 3 and on

by JoeyReg14 on Jan 14, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Team Sport

Sanchez played absolutely terrible against the Colts when he beat us. He was facing the most injured team in the league (by far) and were down to our 4th and 5th string corners starting. He made one good throw at the end, otherwise, he was absolutely terrible.

How many rushing yards against the Chargers did you have? Think it was in the 200’s if I’m not mistaken. And Rivers throwing a pick in the shadow of his own goalpost didn’t help.

And yes, he had a good game against the terrible D of the Pats.

QBs do not win games, in each one of those games your D played excellent, and forced turnovers and stymied the other team’s O. Sanchez does not deserve credit for winning games he played crappy in. Thats the thing about QB wins, they tell you nothing about how they actually played. They just tell you if the TEAM won.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I no longer want Peyton Manning.

The Jets will win the Super Bowl one day and that will be the day i laugh in your face if your not a Jets fan.

by sanchise6 on Jan 13, 2012 5:50 PM EST reply actions  

You are not a smart boy then

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 13, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I want Manning

to be able to play somewhere. But it’s probably not going to happen. He’s not near healthy, and I expect the Colts to be forced to cut him in March. Who knows if then someone takes a chance on him.

BTW, you can’t trade til the middle of March, and Manning’s deadline to get paid 28 million is before that. Either the Colts have to cut him, or pay him and keep him since we paid him so much anyway.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Also,

Why would we waste 30 million dollars to get a QB coming off major neck surgery for 2 years.

The Jets will win the Super Bowl one day and that will be the day i laugh in your face if your not a Jets fan.

by sanchise6 on Jan 13, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I meant a healthy Manning

And he’s probably not even near that.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

People act like 3rd year is a magic number

I’m tired of people acting like a QB either takes a magical leap forward during his 3rd year or he is a bust.

QBs mature at different rates. Some mature faster. Others don’t. It is like in baseball. If a guy is a top prospect, you’d like to see him up in the majors by the time he is 25 or so. But there are HoF players who developed late and didn’t make it to the bigs until they were older.

There are four reasons why I think that Sanchez failed to take the major leap this year than many hoped he would. First, with only one full year in college, it was predictable that he might need more seasoning in the NFL. Second, with the lockout, he lost valuable training pre-season. Third, I think the Jets have done a poor job coaching him. Fourth, because of poor pass protection, Sanchez developed bad habits this year. Even though his numbers improved over all, I saw him look worse in certain situations than he did in the first two years.

by square1 on Jan 13, 2012 8:33 PM EST reply actions  

I think it was his good protection in his first two years that caused the bad habits to develop. And when the line-play regressed to the mean, he couldn’t handle it. A lot (dare I say most) of those sacks were his own fault for having absolutely no pocket awareness.

by Crackback on Jan 14, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

A novel theory

I’ve never heard of good protection causing bad habits.

I agree that he has bad pocket awareness. That doesn’t appear to be a natural talent of his.

But the other habits: unnecessary pump fakes, late throws, etc. appear to be the result of bad coaching.

by square1 on Jan 16, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

it was Schotty that developed his pump fake

and it worked well in the beginning…but it’s like the only trick he’s been given and it looks like the coaching doesn’t know how to tell him to not overuse it

Late throws are probably a combination of lack of separation and inability to read the defense. I really don’t think he’s been given proper coaching to read the defense nor the tools to in the game since they always BARELY get the play off before the clock time is up.

by PowerBar on Jan 18, 2012 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok,

You can’t watch a QB take you to 2 AFC Championships IN HIS FIRST 2 YEARS and then blow on him after a below average year with a bad WR core and a horrible Offensive Coordinator.

The Jets will win the Super Bowl one day and that will be the day i laugh in your face if your not a Jets fan.

by sanchise6 on Jan 13, 2012 10:45 PM EST reply actions  

Mark Sanchez=

Has had more playoff wins then Stafford, Flacco, Freeman and Ryan combined.

The Jets will win the Super Bowl one day and that will be the day i laugh in your face if your not a Jets fan.

by sanchise6 on Jan 13, 2012 10:48 PM EST reply actions  

Ummmm... No

Joe Flacco has 4 playoff wins, just like Sanchez, and in fact is tied with Sanchez for most road playoff wins in NFL history with 4.

by Smackdad on Jan 13, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I meant as much.

My bad.

The Jets will win the Super Bowl one day and that will be the day i laugh in your face if your not a Jets fan.

by sanchise6 on Jan 14, 2012 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Weird

How all these playoff winners (Brady[his early SB years], Flacco, Sanchez, ect..) Weird how they all had great D’s, despite being statistically average or even below average in Flacco’s case QBs. Flacco has had one good playoff game, against the Chiefs, other than that, he’s been absolutely terrible. How does he get the wins though? Because QB’s just win? Rediculous.

Coltsider. A great place for Colts news, oh and I write there.

"Interesting. Sex works even better than chocolate to modify behavior... wonder if anyone else has stumbled onto that." - Sheldon Big Bang Theory

by Candlebox on Jan 14, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

it's a combination of the two

the Jets and Ravens have had some of the most consistently dominant defenses in recent history and they haven’t won the trophy. So saying defense wins games is only partially true and perhaps less true with the way the rules are made now.

by PowerBar on Jan 18, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

give sanchez a chance

i say give him another chance. schotty was bad. we need to get back to a dominant D (pass rusher and safety) and fill that gap called wayne hunter on the o line. I agree with everything in the article except that I think Haley would be a nice addition to the staff. he does not need to demand lots of passing but he can help with the passing game a lot.

by RichTodd on Jan 14, 2012 10:07 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting Comments

found on Jets Insider. It is Steve Young speaking about Sanchez and Schotty. Hopefully, Sparano and Cavanaugh (or whomever will be Sanchez new QB coach) will listen and learn from this!!!

I heard Steve Young talking about our offense on ESPN Radio a few weeks back, but poster “lovethejets” summarized it perfectly. I feel that this summary deserves it’s own thread because it is dead on. It is basically what I and many other Jets fans have been saying all along about our offensive issues

The best points that Steve makes I have highlighted in bold……I cannot wait until we get an innovative OC that takes advantage of his players’ strengths as opposed to someone who tries to turn an athletic, great on-the run qb with playmaking ability downfield into a quick-hitting pocket passer

Yes! If you’re talking about the time I heard Steve Yong commenting…

He was on either ESPN NFL Live or ESPN LA radio, and he was discussing a bunch of things about the Jets offense, and he used that term.

He was seriously critical of Rex and Schotty. Essentially said because Rex is a defensive minded coach, he doesn’t get it, and, the only way that can work to maximize potential of the offense, while having a defensive minded coach, is if he has an offensive coordinator who truly does get everything and can essentially run every facet… and Schotty isn’t… that guy, for this team, with our personnel.

He said:

- Rex and Schotty aren’t handling Mark properly. Called them out for taking snaps away from Sanchez and making it public.

- Said we were not playing to the strengths of two of our highest paid skills players, Sanchez and Holmes.

- Said it should be “unforgivable” how we’re using the two of them, including the fact that we weren’t rolling Mark out enough, moving the pocket enough, especially given Mark’s height, and especially given how Holmes is so good working with a QB on the move/run, i.e., Ben while at the Steelers.

- Said Mark does really well when things are spread out, and he can make a clean read, yet we cluster our receivers/TEs/RBs too often.

- Said the Jets have to take steps to build a pass protecting o-line, as that’s part of the problem. This o-line hasn’t been built to pass protect, to a caliber they should have.

- Said we weren’t taking advantage of the fact that Holmes is one of the best route runners in the game and can routinely beat people with double and triple moves. Said he’s great at “faking out” and “misdirection” and we aren’t letting him use it. Said essentially every time we’ve utilized that strength, we’ve beat people. Noted the Holmes TD in the Jags game, and a catch in the first Patriots game this season.

- Said Holmes was getting TDs at a rate of 1 TD for every 4-6th touch he gets, and it boggles his mind that we won’t feed him, as that’s an amazing ratio.

- Said Holmes was getting open, but that play design was making it more difficult to get huge separation, and that our plays should be designed to do as such. Especially to help our young QB.

Said Holmes is plenty open enough, but there’s a difference between open and separation and that Sanchez doesn’t do “as well” with tight throws. Young says, not because Sanchez can’t make those throws, but that he thinks there’s a confidence issue, that he’s “too afraid” to mess up now, given the way the coaches are on him. Tied that back to the fact that Holmes can and will get, not only open, but more separation if we design our plays differently AND let him do more routes with double and triple moves.

- Said we weren’t protecting Mark well enough (o-line struggles) and it had be adding to his inaccuracy issues. Said that Mark has mechanics issues, but that they could be corrected, and “hidden” with proper play calling.

- Said we needed a new starting RB, as Shonn is too inconsistent and too injury prone. Said he won’t ever be blue/red chip.

He said more, but… Moral of the story, yes… He does not like what’s going on with the offense, and said it was stagnant because we weren’t, using it properly or coaching it properly, at least the offensive coaches, but Steve tends to think it’s either an OC issue or an OC AND QB coach issue. He said he doesn’t know enough to identify if the QB coach is part of the issue, or if it’s primarily the OC.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years." Alexander Tyler

by joeklecko on Jan 21, 2012 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the New York Jets.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Rackmultipart
GGN Thread About Nothing #18 Enter Sandman
545595_428600250485671_100000070982458_1739202_129649609_n_1_small
5 players that i expect to see improvement from this year
P3733056reg_small
Why will Aaron Maybin get 10-20 sacks this season.
Small
Do You Trust The Jets' Front Office?
Small
Diggin Dunbar Diggin the 46

Recent FanPosts

P3733056reg_small
My Life as a New York Jets Fan.
Small
Conner can run
Small
Thoughts on the upcoming season part 1: What to watch for
Small
Thoughts On the Upcoming Season Part 2: The season
Small
Thoughts On the Upcoming Season Part 3: Cleaning House
Small
The Peyton-Goes-Down Debacle Prequel, and the Best QB Some of You Never Heard Of.

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managing Editors

Gangreen-large_small John B

Great-british-events-flag_small David_Wyatt

Staff Writers

Revis_island_small Bro Namath

943_small dvdvil

Wayne_chrebet1_small GangGreenMag

Haters_small bobdolethesnapplelady

Santana_moss_small Jeff W.

Moderators

Revis_christ_small Judgegavel

Return_of_the_jet-i_small MachlinT

Jimmy2_small Tamarack

Rackmultipart rexthejet