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Now this is a friendly post. So no brick throwing.

I understand its trendy in these parts to kill Brian Schottenheimer, but not a lot of hate toward Matt Cavanaugh..Wondering why? Maybe I have missed it ..(very possible)

As I see it ,it seems as though the hate is a bit missed placed.. The only thing i see wrong (and maybe harmful ) in Brian Schottenheimer play calling is the Wild cat. It is to soon for young QB trying to gain respect to have to deal with ..Developing of a QB takes more then good players and "good play calling". . You need to convince that whole huddle that you're the MAN ! Handing the ball over to a WR/RB to play QB a few times every game takes that away..IMO

With that Brian Schottenheimer has had a very good career. He took a young Drew Brees and in a short time helped develop him to being a very good QB. His tenure as OC has never been worse then a top 20 Offense.except 2007 when Kellen Clemens ran the O into the ground .

I mean do you guys recall the OCs u had to sit through prior?

This is basically a long winded question , so thanks for dealing...

Poll
Who's more to blame?
Matt
6 votes
Brian
43 votes

49 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 35 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I think Brian is more to blame

But yes you’re right, Cavanaugh deserve mores blame

Oh yes that's right, I'm a Jets fan.

by Bob_The_Friendly_Baker on Jan 10, 2012 7:43 AM EST reply actions  

This post is about convincing someone else to hire him, right?

The problem with Shotty goes beyond the wildcat calls. It is play selection in general. As people have pointed out, Mark Sanchez attempted fewer deep passes this year than Tim Tebow did in a single game. When you keep feeding your qb short play calls it is much easier for the defense to key in on the play. You are playing against some of the best defenses in football and basically telling them that they only have to defend the first fifteen yards. Sanchez had two years where he progressed nicely and one year full of setbacks. Cavanaugh will be fired because he obviously didn’t know how to settle Sanchez down when Sanchez started his (what I believe to be a temporary) decline, but ultimately the lion’s share of the blame lies with the guy who put him in position to fail, and that’s Shotty.

by SioneBAAOOOHA on Jan 10, 2012 7:48 AM EST reply actions  

Istnt that more about personnel , there for on the GM?

If memory serves this wasn’t a issue the 1st 2 yrs.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

You know, I’m not as hard on the GM as most. He drafts well, the signings he has made have mostly panned out, and even in the case of RT, Hunter is a veteran who did fairly well last year and there was just no way to predict that he would have ended up being quite as bad as he was. Do I blame him for not replacing hunter midseason? Absolutely. But for the most part, we have a very talented football team. I can’t think of more than 3-5 GMs in football who have done as well at amassing talent. Tanny can’t be held responsible for the way the OC chooses to use that talent.

He can however be held responsible for not firing the OC. And if schotty is back next season, then yes. I certainly do blame him.

by SioneBAAOOOHA on Jan 10, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Compelling fanpost title.

From what I’ve seen Cavanaugh does seem to get a solid amount of hate around here though (and for good reason). Also I don’t think being in the top 20 is something to praise Schotty for. Maybe in a rebuilding year but settling for mediocrity year after year is absurd and doesn’t seem remotely condusive to having a winning mentality.

by Nekked on Jan 10, 2012 7:57 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

In Mangini 's last yr they finished were 9th , i believe.

then 13th the next 2 .. I hear your point but that seems a bit better then mediocrity.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Nope

Schotty has never had a top 10 offense. His best was #11. He had one other in the teens, and the rest were in the 20s, mostly mid-to-lower 20s.

I mean no disrespect, but if you really think Schotty is not the problem you haven’t been paying attention, or are young and/or don’t know a whole lot about the game.

Following is a list of Schotty’s flaws. It isn’t all of them, but most that I can remember off the top of my head.

Play design - some of his plays just leave me (and others) scratching our heads wondering WTF? Some of them fail miserably time and time again, never succeeding, yet he calls them repeatedly. In the first game this year against Dallas, they knew Hunter would be facing DeMarcus Ware. Did Schotty plan for that, or even make any adjustments to help Hunter? No. Conner should have been in the backfield, a TE lined up beside Hunter, or Sanchez should have been rolling away from Ware. There should have been trap plays, draws and screens, but there weren’t.

Predictability – many of us sitting at home know the play he’s about to call, so what do you think opposing DCs and defenses know? If your opponent knows what’s coming, then you’d darned well better out-execute them. I have read that Schotty has too many formations and only a small number of plays from each formation, thus when opponents see the formation the offense lines up in, they can pretty quickly tell what is coming. He needs fewer formations and more plays out of each formation.

Offensive System – he shows little or no flexibility or ability whatsoever to design his offense around the talents and skills of his players. Instead, he tries to fit square pegs into round holes. For instance, we know that Sanchez is very good rolling out and throwing on the move. How often do we see that? Certain pass patterns are NEVER run by WRs in Schotty’s system. This goes back to predictability. If opponents know that the Jets will never run certain routes, it’s one less thing they have to worry about.

Game Planning – Schotty’s game plans almost never are geared to taking advantage of opponents’ weaknesses, of mismatches the Jets might have, or to hide Jets weaknesses. Schotty’s and the offense’s worst games are usually when Schotty has the most time to prepare. He has admitted that he gets too cute and overthinks things.

Execution – How many stupid, needless penalties do Jets’ players routinely get that often wind up stalling drives? Obviously, there is no discipline or accountability. Execution is often sloppy. How many games this year did it take the offense the entire first half to get going? How often do they score in the first quarter, thus putting pressure on opponents?

Play calling – there is an art to this that Schotty evidently totally lacks. He seems clueless as to how to set up plays to work. It’s like he just sticks his hand in a bag, pulls out a play at random and runs it. In the past just when Sanchez was starting to get in a rhythm, Schotty would invariably pull Sanchez out and insert Brad Smith to run the Wildcat. Again, he has a habit of calling plays that never work or calling plays at the worst possible time. In addition, the plays called often won’t work for the situation. An example is that on 2nd or 3rd and long, he’ll typically call a short pass that still leaves them 4-5 short of the first down. Routes need to be called that take the receivers past the first down marker. How many times have the Jets had some momentum, and lost that momentum because Schotty takes so damned long to get a play in? How many times have they gotten called for delay of game or had to burn a time out? What about keeping opponents off balance? When they know the Jets have to snap the ball on every play with 1 or 0 seconds left on the clock, they can time their rush/penetration perfectly every time. No other OC does this.

Sanchez – He hasn’t shown the development he could, but again he’s been coached more “not to lose” than to try to win. He’s overcautious and that leads to mistakes. His strengths aren’t being utilized. He actually is good throwing downfield and the offense needs those long plays to keep opposing Ds from crowding 8 in the box, yet Schotty never calls them.

Here’s a post from a poster at GangGreen.com that I think makes another strong case for why Schotty is an awful OC:

Forget playcalling, the reason I don’t think Schotty is a good coach is more the preparation. Coaches get paid, mainly to coach players. A good coach gets the most out of his players.

How many dropped balls did we see this year? How many false starts? Holding calls? Missed blocks? We crap on players like Mulligan, Hunter and Holmes, but how come they don’t improve week to week? It’s been mind-boggling how nearly every player on offense seems to have regressed this year in some way. Good coaches get their players to improve. Schotty has not done that.

The biggest example of this, of course, is Mark Sanchez. Watching him week in and week out, I can tell exactly what he’s being told by Schotty during the week. After the Ravens game, Sanchez never held the ball for more than a couple of seconds. Sanchez is told to not turn the ball over, so he keeps putting balls where only our guy could get at it, causing a lot more incompletions. He’s been told to look at 2 options and throw the ball away. It’s obvious to me that Sanchez takes these lessons to heart and executes them. But these things are not making him a better QB.

Receivers? Why can’t they get separation? How come they drop so many balls? Why are there so many miscommunications with the QB?

RB’s? How come no one seems to have improved their speed or pass-catching ability?

OL? Why did we get eaten alive by pass rushers? Why did their run-blocking regress from last year?

TE’s? Why are there so many penalties? How come Dustin can’t block yet?

He needs to go because he can’t do the fundamental thing that a coach is supposed to do. Teach his players. Make them better. We can argue play-calling and all that, but it’s really inconsequential to this, IMO.

To sum it up, here’s something from Pro Football Weekly:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/201…justment-acume

The following quotes are from NFL scouts, coaches and front-office personnel, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

• “Offensive coaches need to be cerebral. When it comes to making adjustments, (Jets offensive coordinator) Brian Schottenheimer is one of the worst in the game. You look at the way they protected against the Giants. You’re playing one of the best defensive lines in football and you’re not going to give your tackles any help? Someone has to explain that to me. I know (OLT D’Brickashaw) Ferguson is good, but have some common sense.”

If you need further proof, here’s the link to a 100+ page thread at GangGreen.com discussing Schotty’s weaknesses and failures as the Jets’ OC:

http://forums.theganggreen.com/showthread.php?t=59312

If you can’t see that you’re wrong after this, then I can’t help you any further.

"Reality is purely the perception of the individual mind. It follows, that since no two minds are alike, no two perceptions of reality are alike. It further follows, that what reality is to one, may seem complete madness to someone else."

– Yefim Novikov

by joeklecko on Jan 10, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

lol! WTF?

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

When u start off a sentence with “I mean no disrespect” followed be an insult, it’s usually the opposite thats intended . Trust me when I say Im very capable of systematically picking apart Your argument . But that wont be happening.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It Wasn't Meant As An Insult

If it was, believe me, you’d know it. You can’t systematically pick my argument apart, either, because it’s true. Everyone in the NFL and 98% of Jets fans know it’s true. There’s only a few of you who refuse to see the truth of the matter. Doesn’t matter any more because he’s finally history!!!

"Reality is purely the perception of the individual mind. It follows, that since no two minds are alike, no two perceptions of reality are alike. It further follows, that what reality is to one, may seem complete madness to someone else."

– Yefim Novikov

by joeklecko on Jan 11, 2012 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

ill be short becouse im on a phone.

I get it you’re the BGN tough guy.

It’s the QB coach to develop the QB. It’s the OC job to develop the O.

Giant fans can call just about every play of a Giant game . Good teams let u know what their doing yet do it anyway. Gilbride has a top ten O every yr yet he’s always on the fans “hit seat”.

It comes down to talent & development , something Tann and Matt have failed in this yr.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 11, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm Not Saying That Cavanaugh Hasn't Failed Too

He has. I never wanted him here in the first place. As far as I’m concerned, he’s never been an effective NFL coach or player. Cavanaugh should be pushed out the door as well. The bottom line, however, is that Schotty was responsible for Sanchez’ development.

Some players, due to lack of experience, proper coaching, or have confidence issues. Based on the way that Sanchez has played, he seems to have confidence issues. He certainly didn’t have a lot of starting experience. Unlike some OCs, Schotty never seemed to call plays that were designed to help Sanchez find early success, get in a rhythm and build his confidence. He seemed to yo-yo too much in his offense, and didn’t design the offense to play to Sanchez’ strengths and minimize his faults. He didn’t demand accountability either, allowing all the stupid false start and delay of game penalties, and even causing the latter himself.

With regard to your comments about the Giants. Teams can get away with opponents knowing what they’re doing IF they out execute the opposing D. How often did that happen with the Jets? Schotty was responsible for the overall development of the offense and of Sanchez. If Cavanaugh was failing, then it was Shotty’s responsibility to get in Cavanaugh’s face, fire Cavanaugh, or take over grooming Sanchez himself.

"Reality is purely the perception of the individual mind. It follows, that since no two minds are alike, no two perceptions of reality are alike. It further follows, that what reality is to one, may seem complete madness to someone else."

– Yefim Novikov

by joeklecko on Jan 11, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention Schotty's system has failed now for a number of years with a number if different parts...

2011-25th overall offense rank(YPG)
2010-11th
2009-20th
2008-16th
2007-26th
2006-25th

So as you can see by the numbers Schotty’s system was top 15 only once in all the years he has been here(Never top 10 mind you) and is consistantly in the bottom 20( hell half his time he was bottom 25 or worse, which is down right horrible.)

The next thing I would point to is the wsy he handles his personal. Schotty is going to do what schotty us going to do, he doesn’t care if your good at it ir not. He will continue to try to smash square plugs into round holes until the game is basically over and he has no choice but abandon his horribly failing game plan and try and let the QB throw the ball down the field and make plays(You can see evidance of this in all if the Jets comeback wibs last year. He spent 50 minutes failing until we were down by two scores with 10 minutes left and he had bo choice but to let Sanchez try and make pkays throwing the ball diwn the field)

Schotty’s mismanagement of personal is not just evident in Sanchez. To see it more clearly one simply needs to look at the other QBs Schotty tried to force into his (marginal at best) system. Brett Favre’s Jets stat line was3472 yards 22 TDs

by RhodesRocks on Jan 10, 2012 8:13 AM EST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

Damn moblie phone...above post continued..

22 TDs/22 Ints/81 QB rating….and after he left the Jets next year in Minn 4202 yards/33 TDs/7Ints/107.2 rating.

Chad Pennington- 1765 yatds/10TDs/9Ints/86.1 rating….and after he left the Jets next year with the Phins 3653 Yards/19 TDs/7 Ints/ 97.4 QB rating.

As you can see above two QBs that Schotty got run out out of town had amazingly productivite years and led their teams to the play offs after leaving Schotty’s system and moving to a system where their new teams played to the players strengths.

Finally Schotty’s play calling is not only bad but very very predictable, which is almost worse…if 75% of the fans know what play is comming, you can bet your ass the 11 players on the opposing D know too.

When you look at all these phenomena as a whole its pretty clear its time for the Jets and Schotty to part ways.

by RhodesRocks on Jan 10, 2012 8:42 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

Very compeling..

I was using Total pts. as my main reference. Never liked the yds thing . (seems silly) ……..Other then Bret (who had great #s before getting hurt) there hasn’t really been much cream of the crop,not to mention continuit(3 Raising a young QB is difficult . And although I see Sanchez having fun I dont see him owning the huddle. ( That IMO ) is personnel.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

WOW phone screwed me.

continuity (3 QBs in 6 years)

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I should explain why im against yds.

1 . ITS NOT POINTS 2. Because its a QB parade and passer #s are going through dome ceilings. I dont think its fare to rate a team that;s motto is “ground n pound” .

I for 1 think Shotty would explode in popularity if he were aloud to invoke more of a passing O. Rex is the 1 who wants to run the ball,well kinda lives on that premiss.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Why I like yards in this situation is...

It measures the offenses ability to move the ball…which is really the jets problem in our current offensive system. I feel like the points stat gets skewed by having a good defense that consistently gets you a short field. Also of note besides this year the jets were one if the worst teams in the leauge in terms of red zone efficency. So if you combine a low red zone efficiency with schotty’s very low yards per game its not really clear what the offense was doing. They weren’t moving the ball very well to get to the red zone and when the D handed them the ball there they weren’t punching it in.

by RhodesRocks on Jan 10, 2012 11:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

-wheels in a pitching machine modified to shoot bricks-

What?

And there are people who know Cav is to blame, its just the average fan doesn’t know the name of the QB couch off the top of his head.

And the home of the .... JETS!!!
Now lets get a G-D snack!!!
"You might not like that. You might be very cynical about that. Well, f**k it, I don't care what you think."-Roy McDonald

by Noble_Lance on Jan 10, 2012 9:11 AM EST reply actions  

lol

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Blaming the OC is a trendy thing around the league.

It just comes with the territory. It’s one of the reasons why I have little preference as to what the Jets decide to do with the offense this offseason.
Change OC. Change the QB. Hire a new QB coach or a combination of the 3. As long as SOMETHING happens next year we can at least go a long way towards having tangible evidence as to what the real problem is.
Is it Mark? Is Shotty limiting the playbook bc Mark is actually a bust and were getting more than we should be out of him? (I realize all of Shotty’s mistake and gaffs so don’t anybody bother).
Is Shotty holding back and maybe ruining Mark? Do we have a winner in Sanchez and Shotty is somehow poisoning his progression? (We all know this is the popular answer among fans.)
But your right. there is a 3rd possibility. The QB coach is very much responsible for the maturity of Mark and we havn’t seen a lick of it this season. It’s totally fair to point a finger and Matt Cavanaugh.
Again, the popular pick is Shotty and always will be. Go to all of the other team sites on SBNation and you will find 80% of them cussing out their OC’s without a doubt. GGN’s community is just a guilty as any other for placing the finger on Shotty. They may have more of a point then any other team for doing so but the point remains valid.
I give you credit for questioning something else when everyone else is just happy to make a three ring circus out of the Shotty thing.
+1

by Can'tWait on Jan 10, 2012 10:22 AM EST reply actions  

Well done!

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

why hasnt any blame been put on QB coach

other than what i have heard around here i barely here anything negative about the QB coach. Mark’s regression has to fall on his shoulders more than BC to me

by LakeKWIL on Jan 10, 2012 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

Yes, blaming the OC is cliche and popular in hard times

But if you examine his track record, and the overall performance of each offensive unit, Brian is just not good. He had two years of a successful run game, which can be entirely attributed to better players.

Sanchez would certainly benefit from a better QB coach, but the awful performance of the offense for years is attributable to Brian.

Arm chair GM. Mod/contributing writer at SBN Jets blog GGN.
GangGreenNation.com

by Bro Namath on Jan 10, 2012 12:37 PM EST reply actions  

I already don't count the run game

Schotty can’t come close to producing results with an inferior roster. What little success Schottenheimer did have was on the backs of the O line and former Jets backs.

Arm chair GM. Mod/contributing writer at SBN Jets blog GGN.
GangGreenNation.com

by Bro Namath on Jan 10, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame both

But I also love to point out the 2009 Giants, there defense sucked and couldn’t stop a nose bleed and they went 8-8 that year. Was it the personell? No, they just fired the idiot D-coordinator and got production out of the group they had. Maybe the Giants should’ve stuck it out with Sherridan, why was he “scapegoated” that year?

by Clarke W. Griswald on Jan 10, 2012 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

Many blame Bill Sherriden for that " Defense"

I think who ever came in was gonna have a hard time satisfying the masses . Spags delivered a trophy , so anything short of a top 10 D wasn’t going to suffice.

I for one did call for his head ,But! He did have a rash of injuries to deal with..…….Justin Tuck had his shoulder ripped out by this cheating douche…

Boley missed 6 games,Mathias Kiwanuka missed 10 , Osi Umenyiora missed 5, Fred Robbins 4 Chris Canty 8, Aaron Ross 12 games and Kenny Phillips missed 14..

Fare? u decide.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't blame anyone for calling for his head, just as I can't blame anyone for calling for Shottys head.

Schottenheimers “offense” is a travesty to the game. He doesn’t even have a clue as to when to run or pass. If the team brings in a 75 year old “offensive consultant” what does that say about said teams, confidence in the offense?

by Clarke W. Griswald on Jan 10, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

and don't get me wrong Cavanaugh and everyone else associated with this "offense" needs to go

But the fact that the Jets brought in an old retired offensive coordinator as a consultant…. I mean, how many teams have an “offensive consultant”? Its not just the fans that think this guy is “simple”.

by Clarke W. Griswald on Jan 10, 2012 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

cavanaugh gets plenty of blame here and i dont think anybody likes him much

but lets face it, shottenheimer is much higher up the food chain so he’s gonna get more of the blame

metsjetsknicksrangers.............can it get any worse?

by dabu7 on Jan 10, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions  

Brees was above average when he was in San Diego

He tears it up now in New Orleans…Schotty tries to take credit for developing him when he doesnt deserve all that credit.

by jets4life24 on Jan 10, 2012 7:00 PM EST reply actions  

obviously part of His greatness comes from

the scheme and the arena league dome he plays in. also Sean Payton, but before all that Shott helped him along pretty nicely.

I may not be the most noble of men but in a town of lepers, im the one with the most fingers.

Giant LB'zz SUCK!! Mark Herzlich, Jacquian Williams,...Maybe .. Sadly this has been modified.

by Troy O on Jan 10, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

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