Joe Namath Is Much Better Than Rex Grossman: A Rebuttal to SBN NY
by John B on Nov 6, 2010 11:37 AM EDT
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PrintI feel like I must respond to something I saw the other day on SB Nation New York. It was a post written by site editor Ed Valentine pointing out how an ESPN vote rated Joe Namath as the most overrated player of all time. I find any list of "overrated" players that contains the NFL's all-time leading rusher, who also was integral to three Super Bowl winners, as somewhat lacking. This list also absurdly has Joe Montana's name on it. Ed seems to agree with the list, though.
Take that, Broadway Joe. Sadly, I am not going to argue with it.
Here are some of Joe Willie's career numbers, from Pro-Football-Reference.com, via ESPN.
- Career Record: 62-63-4.
- Completion Percentage: 50.1 (1,886 of 3,762).
- Touchdowns: 173.
- Interceptions: 220.
Closest comparison I can find in today's game is Rex Grossman(more INTs that TDs for his career, 54% completions). What is Grossman now? A backup quarterback. I am not saying that is what Namath would be today, but it's amazing that his 'Hall of Fame' resume includes numbers that equate to a current backup QB.
Usually we get some member from The Phinsider writing stuff before the two Jets-Dolphins games each year. I think there is a case to be made that Namath was overrated. There is no case to be made that Namath was as bad as Grossman.
When comparing a quarterback of Namath's era with a quarterback of Grossman's era, you absolutely cannot treat numbers the same. It's not an apples to apples comparision. The rules of the game have changed markedly in favor of wide receivers, which makes the passing game a lot easier. What happened to receivers on a typical play in Namath's day would be pass interference more often than not in today's league.
The numbers back this up. Let's not compare the raw numbers. Let's compare how they rated relative to their respective eras. Since pro-football-reference.com was the website of choice when making the Namath-Grossman comparison, let's use that. Namath led his league in passing yardage three times. He was in the top three on three other occasions. Grossman was never in the top ten. Namath led his league once in touchdown passes. He was second three other times. One top ten showing for Grossman, when he finished seventh in 2006. Yards per passing attempt is a significant statistic. There are guys who complete a high percentage of passes, but if they are a bunch of check downs for no yardage, it doesn't do the team much good. Namath led his league twice and finished top three three times more. Zero again for Grossman.
The numbers indicate Namath finished his career 9% better than the league average in yardage per attempt. His completion percentage was 2% better than league average. Grossman's completion percentage is 20% below league average. He falls 9% below league average in yardage per attempt.
Namath twice won his league's Player of the Year award. One of them was in 1968, the year the Jets won that Super Bowl. The fact he was regarded as the AFL's best player over the course of that season makes the notion he's only remembered because he made a guarantee a tough sell. Grossman never won a Player of the Year or MVP.
There is another factor in Namath's career, his knees. He had chronic knee problems during his career, including a 1971 injury that he felt for the rest of his career. I have heard anecdotal reports from medical professionals that with today's medicine he would have been fine by the next year. He had some good seasons after that, but the knee problems existed.
Let's use pro-football-reference.com's comparisions. They have crunched the numbers and produced players with the most similar careers. If you take him from before the point of his career when the knee injuries ravaged him, names like Troy Aikman, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Fran Tarkenton, and Dan Fouts appear.
Rex Grossman he was not.
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Joe Namath is one of the most overrated NFL players of all-time.
Some people think hes the best QB ever. What a joke. Just because he called a game that he did nothing in.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby
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Football Reference doesn't agree with that comp at all
They have Namath as a career above average QB with a passer rating index of 102 (which likely took a hit because of the last three seasons of his career). Grossman has had a passer rating index of 86, which is well below average. It’s worth noting as well that Namath put up his number in an era when the game was much less passing oriented.
by Stephen Schmidt on Nov 6, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions
Here are the comparables as listed by FR
Joe Theismann, Steve Grogan, Jim Everett, Troy Aikman*, Ken Stabler, Tobin Rote, Ron Jaworski, Jim Plunkett, Jake Plummer, Sonny Jurgensen
Not quite Rex Grossman
by Stephen Schmidt on Nov 6, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Good article and insight into Namath’s career. Always thought it was a stretch that he made the Hall Of Fame based on his numbers since I wasn’t even born yet when the guy played, and that’s all I had to go on. But this helps to illustrate the differences between today’s game and the NFL of the 60’s and 70’s, and legitimizes Broadway Joe’s status as one of the premier passers of his time.
To be honest, I was in a similar boat until I read the Grossman thing. It just caused a light to go off to research it because I knew there was no way he was that bad.
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That’s cool, now we have some argument of substance to defend our most famous player!
by nationalist88 on Nov 6, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Comparisons
Comparing quarterbacks from different era’s is very tough. The thing that I will always remember is Broadway Joe’s guarantee that the Jet’s would beat the Colt’s in Super Bowl III and then backing up his guarantee. This basically eliminated the preceived domance of the original NFL teams.
I am sick and tired...
of Joe Namath…ok ok he led the Jets to thier lone SB victory but i agree he was an overated buffoon…to be TOTALLY honest about that SB, the ONLY reason he got the MVP was because of all his talk leading up to the game were he “Gaurenteed” a win…the REAL MVP shouldve gone to Matt Snell who got 120+ yards and a TD, or even DB Randy Beverley who picked off 2 passes…Joe Willie IMHO should not be in the HOF, his stats speak for themselves…i really hate to be hating on an ex-Jet but Cmon Man!!
Absolutely right. You should NOT be hating on THE ex-Jet.
: )
The man, whether he sold his soul or not, got us to a Superbowl win. He can say whatever he wants about the team now, drink ’till he falls down, or violate his restraining order and molest Suzy Kolber at every given opportunity. He is immortal in these parts.
by nationalist88 on Nov 6, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
In fact, Namath has become underrated over time .....
NFL stat comparisons for QB’s pre west coast offense (as in Bill Walsh’s version …. not Air Coryell) vs. post west coast offense are almost irrelevant. I agree with some of John B.’s points re: the preponderance of “dump-off” passes that boost the completion percentage and also tend to cut down on the number of interceptions. One could also look at other stats that are skewed as well.
Beyond this, however, (and to paraphrase a cliche) …… the sum of Namath is far greater than the individual stats. And …… his reputation was not built solely on the Super Bowl win ….. far from it. Go back to interviews with players and coaches from his era (many available on YouTube). They almost uniformly discuss how Namath was a revolutionary type of QB in the NFL -—— not only making passes that nobody else before him did but also in his general field leadership and ability to read defenses. Watch some of his games (again ……. several are available on YouTube …… not just Super Bowl III). Namath passed downfield a lot …….. yes, it led to some of his interceptions but also stretched the field and posed a great threat to defenses. This opened up the rushing game for the Jets and with Snell and Boozer (and later Riggins) …… Namath was able to call some exquisite games. And …… he was great at audibles ……. often seeing holes for his running backs and switching from a pass play to a running play at the line of scrimmage.
I realize there is a lot of distance between the present and the time Namath was in his heyday but ……. for those fans in their 20’s and 30’s who really only know the NFL post-Bill Walsh, it is a gross misconception to think you can compare Namath’s stats versus those of Marino, Elway, Favre, etc. and make the blanket statement that Namath is overrated and doesn’t even belong in the Hall of Fame. During those prime years, Namath was the man. He revolutionized the position and had a huge impact on the game (and again …… not just because he guaranteed a win and delivered in Super Bowl III).
Great post. True that.
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god some people can be ignorant the man just posted a legitimate reason why he belongs in the hall of fame but some of ya just want to look at the stats he isnt overrated in this time and age sure he would be but in the 60’s and 70’s no way in hell.
Gang green nation!
what can i say he's dwight fricking lowery
WHY IS THIS EVEN UP FOR DEBATE!?
I get it, he wasn’t the greatest QB ever. That’s ok.
But Grossman? Apart from being on a team that was successful in spite of him for a couple of years, what has he accomplished?
This is the opinion of someone who favors the Giants, keep in mind. Which would explain why he forsook stats, passer rating, and common sense to arrive at his conclusion.
GGN Moderator, House pessimist, veteran arm chair coach.
www.GangGreenNation.com
Any idiot who just looks at the stats and says the guys with the best stats are the best, does not know what they are talking about.
Then all the best WRs have played since the late 80’s. All the best hitters in baseball came from two eras; late 1920s to early 1940s and the steroid era.
For once I agree with Rahim Morris. “Stats are for losers.” And people who misuse stats are just plain losers.
Wow Namath numbers suck
Just like Eli and Trent Dilfer, can’t take that super Bowl victory away from him.
Ozone
Yes -- Namath was an NFL and cultural icon. But -- just to reiterate my earlier comments, the guy could flat out play QB with the best of them. He brought a new dimension to the position. He had a great arm but, in my mind, what really distinguished him on the field was his ability to read defenses and his leadership. Namath’s offensive line, RB’s and receivers loved the guy. People may look to his fu manchu, white shoes, etc. as what distinguished him but ……. he was tremendously respected by players from his era ……. both his teammates and players from other teams.
statistics
Statistics are like a whore. Work them long enough and you can do whatever you want with them.
This is a great article on many levels
John: +1
SBN NY (well, moreso the writer of this fine article) : -1
…Rec’d.
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